Dragon Interview: Guildford’s Leading For and Against Brexit Campaigners

Published on: 16 Dec, 2018
Updated on: 21 Dec, 2018

We might all be heartily fed up with Brexit news but it is a hugely important issue for our country and all of us.

With news that the local Leave campaigners were reforming we thought it was time we got the views of two leading local campaigners on the current situation, Christian Holliday who supports Leave and David Pillinger who supports Remain.

The questions were posed by Martin Giles…

Leaver Christian Holliday (left) and Remainer David Pillinger

Question to Christian (Leaver): Guildford, as a constituency, voted to Remain. Weren’t the majority right to think that from a Guildford perspective we would be better to Remain in the EU? What would be better for Guildford if we left?

Christian Holliday

No, I don’t think that’s the right assessment. I think Guildford has many world leading industries and I think we’ll do very well outside of the EU and I think we are stuck in this rut at the moment where we think all of our growth and development is tied to the EU. I think we have got so many international classed industries that we can do very well outside. If we do leave from Guildford’s perspective it is a great opportunity to take pressure off our housing market. Current house prices in Guildford are twelve times the national average salary. Immigration was a big issue in the campaign and its impact on local services. One only has to use an A road in the South of England to know the impact on efficiency, so it’s a chance to put a cap on immigration and have a think about how we deal with that and how we accommodate the people who are already here. So there are two good reasons for Guildford to not fear leaving the EU.

Question to David (Remainer): Do you think it would really be that bad if we do leave? Haven’t a lot of the disadvantages been exaggerated?

David Pillinger

The UK used to be a basket economy when I was a kid. It was a no-hope kind of place and I even remember Italy overtaking us in GNP per head, France was ahead, Germany was ahead and everybody was ahead. But we were still here, sure. Since then we have joined the EU, had some fantastic liberalising reforms by Mrs Thatcher and then not interfered with by Tony Blair, and the place runs like clockwork at the moment. Take away some of the efficiencies and some of the companies here in Guildford, which are extremely international – the Research Park is full of fledgeling and quite weep-established companies who depend on free movement of goods services capital, the big multi-nationals are here Ericsson, Palmolive, Allianz etc – losing that flexibility is quite a serious thing. A company has a certain amount of cost and hopes to have a little bit of revenue. You fiddle about with that and you are affecting things badly. There is a number of companies which are already losing contracts, or not being allowed to bid, and the reason is we are not going to be in the Single Market. I can’t say who they are, certainly our MP knows who they are. It’s not good news for them.

Question to Christian (Leaver): The government is running out of time and options. Is there anything the Prime Minister can get added to the deal she has secured that would make it acceptable to you?

Christian Holliday

The main problem with the deal at the moment is the Northern Ireland backstop. It splits Northern Ireland off from Great Britain and Dominic Raab, the former Brexit Secretary, said that that was the plan all along, the price Britain would have to pay for Brexit would be losing Northern Ireland. Now clearly that’s not acceptable to the Conservative and Unionist party, it’s not acceptable to the DUP and it’s not acceptable to most Labour MPs actually, so that would have to come out or there would have to be specific legal guarantees within the agreement to bring the backstop to an end or give us a unilateral right to leave. The fact is that the EU has made it very clear that that is not going to happen, that the deal itself is not open to negotiation. She [Theresa May] is welcome to keep trying and I wish her all the best with that but the reality is that the odds are against that. So at the moment if that’s going to stay then it makes the deal unacceptable.

Question to David (Remainer): And what is your view of the negotiated deal? Would you find it acceptable or are you pinning all your hopes on a second referendum?

David Pillinger

I think negotiating Brexit is almost an impossibility. It’s full of inconsistencies. The Brexiteers like borders but they don’t want the border with one bit of the EU – Ireland. They want free trade and all that stuff but they want to close the country to the free movement of capital, goods and people with other countries that are the richest in the world and are next door to us, allowing very easy trade. And they also tell us that Britain can negotiate better as a little standalone country – no it won’t – we can negotiate better as we’ve always done, as members of the EU. So I don’t think either May’s deal or any deal will be any good. A second referendum will allow people who know understand what Brexit means make a proper decision and not base it on, let’s face it, a load of fanciful comments made in 2016.

Question to David (Remainer): Don’t you think that if the original referendum result is not respected and we don’t leave the EU many will completely lose faith in our democracy?

David Pillinger

Well, you know, it’s a really complex thing, I absolutely agree, it’s a risky thing, but what are you going to do? Are you going to allow things to go forward in this shambolic way that’s going to make us all worse off? Or are you going to say to the people well now you have had two years of facts – we now know what it’s going to look like – now you decide again. You decide whether it is, in fact worth paying £350 million a week to the EU when that is actually a very, very small figure and goes to fund an enormous amount of effort and benefits that this country gets.

Question to Christian (Leaver): Isn’t a People’s Vote the only way to settle this now? Parliament seems to be stuck.

Christian Holliday

Well, the reason we gave a vote to the general public was because Parliament was always divided and out of touch with the people on this issue. Parliament doesn’t actually need to think very hard about this issue at all because the decision has been made. Leave means Leave, to coin a phrase, and at the time David Cameron made it very clear that meant leaving the Single Market as did the Vote Leave campaign. In one interview, I think it was Sky News, David Cameron said fourteen times it would mean being outside the Single Market. So we knew what we were voting for and to put that back to the people again would be unprecedented. Every referendum we’ve ever had in this country has been implemented, whether that is devolution for Scotland and Wales or to say no to an assembly for the Nort East of England. So to set a precedent now that the votes of 17.4 million people count for nothing is seriously dangerous. There are people who voted for the first time in their lives, in that referendum and that has to be honoured.

Question to Christian (Leaver): You have relaunched the Leave campaign. Is that because you think a second referendum is inevitable?

Christian Holliday

Well Leave campaigners have kept in touch since 2016, many of them have expressed frustration at the way the Brexit negotiations are going. They are not happy with the government’s approach. Primarily they saw it as a social activity but if needs be we will be ready for any future campaign to come along but, as I say, there will be major issues with that as a principle and it’s not something we’d support.

Question to David (Remainer): are you ready to campaign too?

David Pillinger

As Christian was saying, the Remain network has kept in touch and it’s grown bigger and established links with industry, with academia with the NHS. I dare say people will be ready to launch into a campaign again. Obviously, people are very busy; they have jobs. I fly in an out every week of the year at the moment on my particular business assignment and I have to fit it in with that but I certainly will be there.

Question to both: If there is another referendum what options should be available to vote for?

David Pillinger

David: On the basis that people now know what this means I think there should be an option of Remain, I think that is a very important one and one that our kids depend on, because let’s face it they’ll be losing their freedom of movement, we should have some sort of defined deal which our government has agreed with the EU, that’s what’s been negotiated over two years and then the other one should be some other deal that a competing element of either the Conservative party or a mixture of MPs define very, very clearly. People need to know that they are going to lose their freedom of movement, industry is not going to have skills, we have to understand all this stuff.

Christian Holliday

Christian: We maintain there is no need for a second referendum. If there were then it would be outrageous to have three options, that would be a blatant attempt to split the Leave vote between Leave with a deal and Leave with no deal and, in fact, the question of whether or not we leave has already been answered in 2016. Any second question should therefore be, do we leave with a deal or do we leave without a deal? We should leave it at that.

Responses to Dragon Interview: Guildford’s Leading For and Against Brexit Campaigners

Jeremy Pattison Reply

December 16, 2018 at 6:30 pm

A three-option referendum wouldn’t split the Leave vote if we thought beyond the limitations of FPTP [first past the post] and used a voting system that incorporated voters’ second preferences.
Jim Allen Reply

December 17, 2018 at 1:07 am

I must point out we have already had two votes, the referendum and the general election, on the subject. Both resulted in a clear statement for departure from the EU. Just how many more votes are required before people will accept the will of the majority.
Ros McMillan Reply

December 17, 2018 at 9:20 pm

Why is a vote by 37% of the electorate still being described as conclusive. It was anything but. And it was supposed to be advisory.
- Adam Aaronson Reply
  
  December 18, 2018 at 8:24 am
  
  It should not be forgotten that the Electoral Commission found that Vote Leave and Leave EU cheated and they are being investigated by the National Crime Agency and the Metropolitan Police.
  
  Unfortunately, the prime minister has never addressed this. Perhaps she is holding this in reserve for a last minute Damascene conversion. In the meantime, the message that she sends out to the country is not one of reconciliation but instead that cheating is acceptable.
  
  Equally the leader of the opposition has said hardly anything on the subject.
  
  Both Mrs May and Mr Corbyn seem to be tacitly condoning electoral fraud.
  
  Democracy can only be underpinned by fair elections. The referendum was a travesty and any MP who does not speak out on this is effectively complicit in electoral fraud.
- Stuart Barnes Reply
  
  December 18, 2018 at 9:31 am
  
  It was supposed to be conclusive – see Cameron’s various comments and his outrageous pamphlet paid for by our tax money. We do not need another referendum.
  
  The majority in the country now seems to be for a WTO deal – see government petitions – now at over 206,000 voters.
John Perkins Reply

December 18, 2018 at 8:13 am

Why are we even having this debate?

It was held at length over two years ago, everyone had the opportunity to take part and the result was a vote in favour of leaving. Parties and politicians agreed to abide by it and Parliament voted to implement it.

Now it seems a relatively small group with a vested interest want to reverse it.
John Schluter Reply

December 18, 2018 at 6:51 pm

It’s a shame Christian Holliday wasn’t asked if he still advocated those who support or suggest remaining in the EU be charged under the 1848 Treason Felony Act?
Stuart Barnes Reply

December 19, 2018 at 9:33 am

I note that the petition to get us out of the EU cleanly on WTO terms without payment is now running at about 250,000 and rising quickly. It is now second of all the petitions on the government site. It looks as though it could hit 300,000 in a day or so.

Does anyone know what the biggest petition has been so far?

I suggest that it shows what the real feeling in the country is.
- Richard Carpenter Reply
  
  December 19, 2018 at 6:15 pm
  
  The biggest petition so far was for a second referendum and clocked up about 4 million signatures. It took place in the two or three months following the 2016 referendum.
  
  This present WTO crash-out petition will really have to go some to match even a quarter of that 2016 (Remain) petition total. Utterly no chance, I’d say.
  - Stuart Barnes Reply
    
    December 20, 2018 at 9:00 am
    
    Thanks for the info. Was that on the same site? As you say it looks as though the WTO clean break petition has a way to go yet!
  - John Perkins Reply
    
    December 22, 2018 at 12:55 pm
    
    At least 77,000 votes were removed as fraudulent. UK residents of Vatican City (pop. 800) voted 39,000 times while the uninhabited island of South Georgia provided another 3,000 signatures – 300 more than the 400 researchers of the British Antarctic Territory. Almost 24,000 UK residents of North Korea felt the need to sign their support.
N Mathias Reply

December 19, 2018 at 2:23 pm

That referendum we had; where was it stated that we would have the Army on standby, stock markets losing value, paying €7 to travel to Europe, Kent turned into a lorry park, British registered airlines unable to operate inside the EU, medicines stock piled. The list goes on and on, and so could I.

The general population had no idea what they were voting for. In v. out referendum, what a joke.This is why we are having this debate.

Leave are terrified of a people’s vote.
- Stuart Barnes Reply
  
  December 20, 2018 at 9:06 am
  
  Surely the continual accusation by the “elite” (ha ha) that the poor ignorant people did not know what they were voting for is grossly insulting? Maybe they did not vote the way you wanted but it is not fair to continue to insult them and it would be a greater insult to make them vote again.
- John Perkins Reply
  
  December 20, 2018 at 5:00 pm
  
  That list was all part of Project Fear 1.0, a feature of the Remain campaign.
Clive Watson Reply

December 20, 2018 at 7:12 am

Let’s have four options in a “People’s Vote”:

Remain

Norway

May’s deal

No Deal

Top two then have a run off.

At least everyone would know what they are voting for this time.
Ben Stonehouse Reply

December 20, 2018 at 11:13 am

Stephen Fry has put together a very informative Brexit Versus facts video [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o&w=640&h=360].

Brexit is built on false fears and fantasies.

We are in the end game now.
- Jim Allen Reply
  
  December 20, 2018 at 4:37 pm
  
  The panic and illusions over leaving the EU are based on false fears and fantasies. Those who knew what we were voting for did not rely on, or live in, Tolkien’s fictional universe or Blyton’s stories of the Famous Five, we live in the real world. Dictatorship and communism are real and not figments of the imagination.
John Hawthorne Reply

December 21, 2018 at 8:22 pm

We might leave the EU apparently due to the UK regions feeling “left behind” with no voice of their own. Currently there are five powerful regions in the UK: London, Greater Manchester, Ulster, Scotland and Wales. Of the five, four voted to Remain. There is a distinct pattern here (even Cardiff voted Remain).

We all really know deep down that Brexit is nonsense. The whole world knows it, and there is even a bus now touring the country so let us put that to one side.

How many of us know the names of our MEP or our local councillor or our county councillor – answer hardly any. And yet Merrow has three Tory councillors. Talk about barmy.

Shave all these numbers down at local and county level and with the money saved open regional assemblies (ours would be Wessex).

This gives power to regions and connects regions to the EU.

There will be local elections next year – make sure you vote counts.
- John Perkins Reply
  
  December 24, 2018 at 2:43 pm
  
  Greater Manchester, although not recognised as an EU region, voted strongly to Leave. Wales too voted Leave, even if Cardiff did buck the trend. In fact only three out of the 12 EU regions of the UK voted Remain.
Susan Parker Reply

December 22, 2018 at 8:10 am

Jim Allen couldn’t know what he was voting for, because it hasn’t been decided yet. We’ll only know in three months. He might have had a wish list but each Leave voter had their own different wish list. It was only the Remain voters who knew what their vote meant.

In practice, the final options are No Deal (economic disaster, food shortages, medicine shortages so people will die) or May’s Deal (loss of sovereignty and the probability that the UK will fragment, with a significant economic downturn).

The deal we still have – which we can keep, with rebate, veto and sovereignty – made us the fifth richest country in the world, from being the Sick Man of Europe. (We’ve slipped to seventh already, by the way, new stats put us below France and India).