Letter: How Will It Help the UK to Leave the EU Without a Deal?

Published on: 18 Nov, 2017
Updated on: 18 Nov, 2017

From Robert Good

An open letter to the Rt Hon Anne Milton MP

Dear Mrs Milton,

I am writing to confirm that, notwithstanding the result of the referendum on 23 June 2016, I remain in favour of being part of the European Union as being most in the interests of the people of Britain. This was also your view at the time, which I applaud. Similarly it was the view of no less than 58% of Conservative MPs and 75% of all MPs (see www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946).

Theresa May herself campaigned to remain in her Maidenhead constituency.

Members of Parliament are required to abide by a Code of Conduct. Under “Duties of Members,” we read, “Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole; and a special duty to their constituents.”

If they were in fact true to their duties, members would have had this requirement in mind when they voted.

Given the obligation of MPs to adhere to the code, it is difficult for ordinary people to understand why so many MPs have reversed their views when, save for the referendum, no other physical circumstance has changed. We know that the referendum was in any event advisory and not mandatory. You will understand why I suggest that putting one’s party before country brings politics itself into disrepute.

In Guildford, the view of most voters was also Remain, by 44,155 votes to 34,458. Those in favour of remaining in the EU were in the majority by 57% to 43%, and on the relatively high turn-out of 77% (www.guildford.gov.uk/eureferendum).

Few can have voted knowingly to make Britain worse off, although I regret to say I did hear someone say they would prefer us all to be worse off if it meant getting rid of foreigners!

Regarding The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, it now seems that one of Mrs May’s own amendments, number 381, paves the way for leaving the EU without any sort of deal.

I should be grateful to know the reasoning behind amendment 381 and how it helps ensure that the UK will better off as a “third country” than as a member of the EU: how is amendment 381 a prudent course of action that is in the best “interests of the nation as a whole”?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Responses to Letter: How Will It Help the UK to Leave the EU Without a Deal?

Bernard Parke Reply

November 18, 2017 at 5:12 pm

An interesting letter from Mr Good.

It is mentioned in his letter us becoming the third country. Surely if we stay as just one of 28 countries governed by an unelected bureaucracy in Brussels we would lose our identity as a democratic nation and with it our freedom.

Do we really want European domination?

We and the Commonwealth fought two world wars against just that.
- Martin Sharman Reply
  
  November 18, 2017 at 8:54 pm
  
  The idea that “if we stay as just one of 28 countries governed by an unelected bureaucracy in Brussels we would lose our identity as a democratic nation and with it, our freedom” contains an inaccuracy, a dismal misunderstanding and a logical fallacy, which isn’t bad for a single sentence.
  
  First, no bureaucracy in any government is elected. The civil servants of the EU are no different in that respect from any other civil service.
  
  Second, the UK has never been governed by any bureaucracy in Brussels. The decisions made in Brussels are made by the ministers of the governments of the Member States of the EU and are agreed upon by the parliaments of those states.
  
  Third, there is no logical link between the nonsense at the start of the sentence to the propaganda at the end. The EU has caused not a single one of its members to lose its identity, any more than any other union causes its members to lose their identity. As for loss of freedom, the loss of freedom that Brexit threatens is real, while it is frankly impossible to identify any freedom that might be loss by continued membership of the greatest social, environmental and economic union on the planet.
- David Nicoll Reply
  
  November 18, 2017 at 9:01 pm
  
  1. The EU is not an “unelected bureaucracy”. Decisions are taken by either (a) the elected Heads of government of the member states, or (b) the elected Members of the European Parliament.
  
  2. The “bureaucracy” is smaller than that employed by Birmingham City Council.
  
  3. The EU is an enabling body, not a governing body, allowing for coordination amongst 28 member states. Surely in the face of global business, global environmental challenges, and so on, this is a good thing?
  
  4. Bernard Parke does not seem to understand the world wars very well. The first largely arose as a result of military and colonial rivalries between the UK and Germany, and a lot of petty nationalist squabbling between a whole range of nations – exactly the sort of thing the EU prevents. The second arose, again, through a false sense of national superiority from two world powers (Germany and Japan), something Brexiteers seem to want to encourage and the EU specifically counters. In any event, calling them wars against European domination is grossly insulting to the millions who died in appalling conditions in the Far East.
  
  5. The Commonwealth did not participate in either World War, as it did not exist at the time.
  
  6. In any event, equating Germany with the whole of Europe is, again, grossly insulting to the millions of French, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Greeks, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, and so on who also fought and died – and whose countries are still part of the EU.
  
  One wonders whether Mr Parke actually participated in either of those conflicts?
  
  The use of the word “Commonwealth” was an editorial change to replace “Dominions”. The change was made because servicemen from more than just the dominions fought in the war. The word Empire should have been used. Apologies. Ed
  - David Messer Reply
    
    November 19, 2017 at 5:13 pm
    
    What an extraordinary post by David Nicholl.
    
    Partly a personal attack on Mr Parke but otherwise a sort of “Horrible History” contributing nothing of value to the Brexit debate.
    
    Where does he get his information from I wonder?
    
    If I were chairman of Birmingham City Council I would be deeply offended at being compared to the EU bureaucracy. Last time I looked there were some 46,000 civil servants involved in the EU who enjoy mouth-watering salaries, pensions, and perks too many to mention.
    
    Neither do the councillors traipse off to Glasgow (or anywhere else) once a month to carry on their business at vast expense to the taxpayer?
    
    Not to mention the extraordinary salaries and perks of the MEPs which make our MPs look like slave labour.
    
    I suspect that Birmingham’s accounts are audited every year – a situation totally alien to the EU. Wanting to leave this pantomime has nothing to do with dislike of foreigners – it’s just plain common sense.
- Michael English Reply
  
  November 18, 2017 at 10:18 pm
  
  We should be leading the way forward in Europe. We can win two world wars, but can’t win the argument? We certainly should not be crashing out without a deal. The Leave campaign promised it would be easy, so why the ‘no deal’ scenario? Were they lying or simply delusional?
- Tim Neal Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 12:35 am
  
  We all fought fascism, usually with the forces from overseas being sent in first.
  
  A UK in the EU is the strongest and best possible position for the UK and for the former, yes I say former, Commonwealth countries. It’s stability ensures we won’t be called upon again as British cannon fodder, and it gives us a presence in the EU via a combined voice.
  
  Leaving is quite simply to dumbest thing the UK can do.
  
  To that end we, New Zealand and Australia, are following Canada in finalising our own free trade agreement with the euro zone. The UK on leaving will be of low priority.
  - Jude Ongeri Reply
    
    November 19, 2017 at 2:09 pm
    
    Well said.
- Misha Carder Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 3:20 pm
  
  I would heartily recommend that Bernard Parke looks into the way the World Trade Organisation operates. If he is worried about European domination, the alternative, is the pan-world dominating organisation. Their main loyalties are with the multi-nationals who sue companies, including national governments, whose regulations and laws affect their bottom-line.
  
  Most of us don’t want to live in de-regulated (e.g. Grenfell), low-tax, poor service, gated communities, in a society that only acknowledges wealth – and not human dignity and equality.
  
  If we are going to be nostalgic let’s get back to the “you’ve never had it so good era” when people we decently-housed and had jobs and food in their bellies.
- Mike Gatiss Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 6:41 pm
  
  What unelected bureaucracy? The commission is appointed by each state but all their suggestions have to get past the directly elected MEPs.
  
  We’re more at risk of being dominated by Europe if we leave, we’ve always had a veto as part of the EU.
- Jacqueline Bridgeman Reply
  
  January 23, 2018 at 10:59 pm
  
  As members of the European Union we help to make the EU laws, they are not forced upon us. If we leave the EU we will have to continue to abide by many EU laws if we want to continue trading with the EU. So then we will have to obey laws that we haven’t made!
  
  We have never been dominated by Europe. As members of the EU, we have reaped many benefits and we have also had over 40 years of peace in Europe. That is something to really brag about.
John Riley Reply

November 18, 2017 at 7:22 pm

Does Bernard Parke you really equate the European Union (of which we are currently a leading member with a veto over many policy issues) with the murderous Nazi dictatorship of Adolf Hitler and the militaristic kingdom of Kaiser Wilhelm II?

Can he really not see any difference?
Lucie von Leyden Reply

November 18, 2017 at 8:05 pm

When I last looked, the EU was not run by an unelected bureaucracy, but representatives appointed by our elected governments who have a veto over decisions they don’t like. Furthermore, they are supported by an elected European Parliament who will take a democratic decision over whether they agree with the terms of our withdrawal.

Churchill himself was a proponent of a united, free and democratic Europe – united in trade to prevent further bloodshed – and as the child of a European refugee, I find it desperately sad that we’re turning our back on that project. As a child of the 70s, I do remember clearly being “the sick man of Europe”. We owe a lot to the EU.
Bill Chapman Reply

November 18, 2017 at 9:07 pm

As time marches on it becomes apparent that we now need to come together as a nation and make an even greater success of our membership of the EU. This charade has gone on long enough. If there is a case for leaving the EU, I have yet to hear it.
David Howley Reply

November 18, 2017 at 9:17 pm

Clearly, the more truthful representation rests in Robert Good’s letter. I say this as a Canadian who has lived in Britain for thirty years and raised a family of three British/European born children with my wife (from Wales).

Sadly Mr Parke has chosen to rely on political rhetoric and an assumed British supremacy of even the Commonwealth. Should Mr Parke wish to know, my father and his first cousin both served with the RAF although neither of them was British. I didn’t meet his first cousin, he was lost in the English Channel in 1940.

I can say that my father never expressed a fear or paranoia about European domination of Britain. He was rightfully proud of playing however small (though perilous) a role in freeing Europe from an evil and hate-filled cancer.
Thibault Jamme Reply

November 18, 2017 at 9:21 pm

I’d really like Anne Milton to answer that one too.
Sarah Wright Reply

November 18, 2017 at 9:25 pm

By the government’s own standards we cannot get a good deal because whatever deal we do get will be a worse deal than the one we have already.

Democracy should supercede a bad deal which means Parliament, or the people, should decide on the deal. Remembering, of course, that only a very small percentage of laws of our country are democratically decided on in the EU.
Wayne Smith Reply

November 18, 2017 at 9:31 pm

Will the Remainers ever give up?

In my opinion, Robert Good lost his case when he said that MPs are required to adhere to a code of conduct. Does he mean those same MPs that have kept the pages of our newspapers full off tales of sexual assault, harassment and expense fiddling?

The referendum was for the UK (as a whole), to decide and in that respect, once the votes were counted those individual results in town, cities and countries became irrelevant. A majority supported Brexit and if opinion polls are to be believed, an increasing number of Remainers’ now also support the UK leaving the EU, which leaves Mr Good in an ever smaller minority.

It’s time people started to believe in Great Britain again.
- Fiona Niedermayer Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 12:13 am
  
  I would like to know which opinion polls Mr Wayne Smith is referring to, as I have only seen one so far (NatCen Social Research), but that opinion poll shows that people currently think it was wrong to vote Leave. Also, I don’t understand why Mr. Good should lose his argument when he agrees with Mr Smith that MPs have to some extent ignored the Code of Conduct they should abide by. Obviously, they have to be held to account, but how will Leaving the EU facilitate that?
- Tom Savage Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 8:26 am
  
  This argument keeps coming up. The EU governance is much like the UK. MEPs are elected, and the administration are the employed bureaucrats. In UK, MPs are elected and the civil service are the unelected bureaucrats.
  
  The argument about ‘taking back control’ needs to stop.
- James Smith Reply
  
  November 19, 2017 at 10:18 am
  
  No, the remainers will never give up, and why should they?
  
  Your sentence about more remainers now supporting brexit is also a complete fallacy. The opposite is clearly the case, the lies of easy deals and money to the NHS has exposed the Leave campaign for what it really is. A right wing, media led, opportunistic power grab.
  
  And if we want to make Britain great again, then we need to cancel Brexit (as it was an advisory referendum), and try to repair the damage done with our friends in Europe.
Ivy Fling Reply

November 18, 2017 at 10:02 pm

Mr Good is quite right – I have the impression that I am living in a world gone mad.

What will our grandchildren think of us? Will they understand that we have sacrificed their future to our inability to cooperate with other European countries?

Judging by the opinions of my students they will not – they will rightly condemn us for putting politics (and bad politics at that) before their prosperity.
Martyn Calder Reply

November 18, 2017 at 10:17 pm

Robert Good asks fair questions and if there is no good answer to these then we should not be leaving.

Your correspondent who invoked the Second World War has no right to do so. That is faux patriotism and wholly unworthy. The war was fought against fascism and to make a peace in Europe. The EU stands for both of these, and it is a complete fallacy that we are governed by it. “Unelected bureaucracy” and “European domination” are just idle catchphrases.
Jim Allen Reply

November 19, 2017 at 12:30 am

Where on earth did this come from?

We will be £19 billion better off once we have left (figure based on an EU member claiming they will be £19 billion short when we leave – that equates to £300 million a week). When will it be accepted that the referendum based on a simple majority.

It is time for the country to come together and stop running Britain down.

I am tired of this debate. It is time to move on.
June Hale Reply

November 19, 2017 at 1:00 am

Why is it that Brexit supporters are unable to frame a single logical argument as to why we should leave the European Union?

We are already suffering in ways not envisaged prior to the Referendum, including losing our precious Triple-A credit rating, which enabled cheaper borrowing, losing highly skilled and highly paid financial services staff from the City of London, paying hugely inflated prices for our imports, including food, due to the 14% fall in the £, and missing out in many instances of international cooperation in important scientific projects.

The only answer seems to be that we will make Britain great again, very easy words to write or say, less easy to explain. Apart from the undeniable economic effect, destined to get much worse once we have actually left, there are the far more important issues surrounding peace and security.

The likelihood of the Northern Ireland peace process surviving the establishment of any kind of “hard” border is slim to vanishing. Our action in running out on our European obligations is serving to destabilise the Union at a time of uncertainty and threat and to bolster the ambition of an increasingly bellicose Russia.

Cross-border cooperation on anti-terrorist measures is also under threat. And it is becoming very obvious that trade deals made from a position of solitary weakness will leave us at the mercy of international predators, ever-ready to use us as dumping grounds for substandard manufactured goods and foodstuffs.

As the case of Bombardier shows, supposed allies will not hesitate to tilt the playing field to our disadvantage. A 400% tariff imposed on a plane, which itself was not in competition with any manufactured in the US, is enough to put that company out of business and throw its workers on the dole. Will someone explain to me what is ‘Great’ about of any of that?
Tim Evans Reply

November 19, 2017 at 1:21 am

Now that, is a very good question from Robert Good.

I wonder if he will get a reply?
Pete Marsh Reply

November 19, 2017 at 8:35 am

I believe in Great Britain and believe it is greater for working in collaboration with its friends and allies, the EU is no, and has never been, our enemy, despite being easy to blame for the lack of action on issues which are actually self-determined.

Further, the principle of democracy is not that the clock stops at a single point in time and that is a decision for evermore. The debate and dialogue continues and people reassess their position as new information becomes available. A second referendum on the known outcomes of the Leave negotiations is a sensible and reasonable democratic decision.
Jim Blythe Reply

November 19, 2017 at 9:03 am

In response to Wayne Smith, no, I doubt if Remainers will ever give up.

I believe in my country and, as such, I want it to continue to have a leading role in the European Union and indeed the world. Isolating ourselves through Brexit has already made us a laughing-stock, and if we actually leave (which is looking less likely with every day that passes) we can wave goodbye to any standing we have elsewhere.

I don’t know which opinion polls Mr Smith is reading, but the last six YouGov polls have all shown a majority for Remain, and other polls back that up. There are Remainers who believe that the referendum result should be respected, but were there to be another referendum it would result in a win for Remain.

That would not, of course, silence the Leave faction, who would exercise their democratic right to object and campaign for re-run. I have no problem with freedom of speech, so I would expect that to happen and, as a supporter of democracy, I would actually welcome it. Sadly, many Leave voters do not believe that Remainers should have that right.
Linda Graham Reply

November 19, 2017 at 9:05 am

No, some of us remainers will not give up. “Great Britain ” is diminished by this decision in the eyes of the world. Our Parliament, having boxed itself in, is incapable of acting for the good of the people.

The government will put party allegiance before the good of the country. The whips control the MPs. That’s why we remainers won’t give up. Only the people can correct this mistake.
Wayne Smith Reply

November 19, 2017 at 1:09 pm

In reply to Jim Blythe, I hold my hand up and admit that I hadn’t seen the 27th October update on the YouGov polling which does now show a slight increase in the “Bregret” vote. See: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/there-has-been-shift-against-brexit-public-still-t/

From the YouGov website: “The average of YouGov’s five most recent polls shows 43% saying we were right to vote to leave and 45% saying we were wrong. By contrast, on average the first five polls of this year saw 46% saying we were right to leave and 42% wrong”.

Also from the same YouGov page: “But before anyone gets carried away with the possible implications of this shift, it is important to note that thinking Britain was wrong to vote to leave is not the same as thinking the referendum result should be reversed.

Some Remain voters don’t like the destination but have strapped in for the ride.

In a recent poll, we asked Britons which of four different routes they would prefer the Brexit process take. Four in ten (40%) wanted to continue with Brexit on current negotiating terms, whilst 12% wanted Britain to seek a “softer” Brexit – meaning a “go ahead” majority of 52%.

Just 18% wanted a second referendum and a further 14% wanted Brexit abandoned completely, a total of 32% for an “attempt to reverse” Brexit. The remaining 16% said they didn’t know.”

I’ll leave The Guildford Dragon readers to utter their own favourite quote about statistics.
- Jim Blythe Reply
  
  November 20, 2017 at 2:27 pm
  
  First of all, I would like to thank Wayne Smith for commenting in a civilised way. Sadly, most Leavers I engage with resort to insults and calling me a traitor. I expect he finds the same with many Remainers, which seems to me to indicate that feelings are still running high.
  
  Anyway, to the point: I just went to the YouGov tabulations, and the latest set show 42% believe we would be right to leave, with 46% saying wrong. The rest are “don’t knows”. That is from fieldwork done on the 7th and 8th November: the previous poll, done on the 18th to 19th October, showed 42% saying right to leave, 45% saying wrong.
  
  A useful resource for this is UK Polling Report, which is a blog written by a statistician: he comments on the accuracy (or otherwise) of polls. He also comments across all the polls: it can get technical because he discusses weighting methods and sampling errors, but if you have any knowledge of statistical methods it all makes sense.
Stuart Barnes Reply

November 19, 2017 at 4:07 pm

The Remainers just need to face the fact that they lost. We are going to leave the corrupt, hated, undemocratic and failed EU.
- Robert Good Reply
  
  November 20, 2017 at 5:00 pm
  
  I am not a fan of the “we must respect the will of the people” line regarding Brexit – particularly when the “will of the people” was only 37% of the electorate. Although I recognise there are arguments both ways, and one of the principles of democracy is that one should respect the will of the people, there are other arguments. Thus, so far as I am aware, every democracy in the World seeking to amend their constitution requires a two-thirds majority, or even three-quarters, before it can come about.
  
  For such a momentous change in our constitution (albeit unwritten) it is absurd that this could arise through the overblown rhetoric of the likes of Johnson, Farage, Gove and Rees-Mogg – not to mention newspapers such as The Sun, The Mail, The Express and the Telegraph, largely owned by millionaires and billionnaires of dubious reputation.
  
  To suggest we should “respect the result” surely predicates we ought to be able to respect the process. Nothing could be further from common sense than that we should respect the hyperbole and balderdash with which the debate was conducted.
- Brian Creese Reply
  
  November 20, 2017 at 5:25 pm
  
  I think we need a bit more detail here. Corrupt? In what way? Hated? by some certainly, but hardly by most. I don’t think you can say that every leave voter ie 37% of the population ‘hated’ the EU. Undemocratic? As noted endlessly above the democracy of the EU is as good – or as bad – as that of the UK. No significant difference unless you have something else in mind? Failed. Really? I fear we are about to discover what ‘failed’ really feels like! But please do expalin why you use these four very loaded words and what evidence you have to justify them.
B Townsend Reply

November 19, 2017 at 5:29 pm

Well said Mr Good. Interesting and accurate points.
Fiona Niedermayer Reply

November 19, 2017 at 9:14 pm

In reply to Wayne Smith, YouGov is owned by a major donor to the Tory party and so is not impartial.
Carl Jorgensen Reply

November 20, 2017 at 1:51 am

Brexit will and is quickly becoming a disaster. Our economy is falling apart. Food is starting to rot in the fields, fishermen are worried they won’t be able to export. Manufacturers are thinking of moving their business elsewhere and wait until the financial institutions start moving from the UK, it’ll be rationing all over again. If we don’t end up having to dig up flower beds to accommodate garden-grown food I’d be genuinely surprised. Brexit is madness. No deal Brexit is suicide.
Wayne Smith Reply

November 20, 2017 at 1:22 pm

In reply to Fiona Niedermayer, suggesting that the results of YouGov polls can’t be trusted because YouGov is owned by a Tory donor is just preposterous ! YouGov is, in fact, an International public company listed on the London Stock Exchange since 2005.
John Hawthorne Reply

November 20, 2017 at 1:42 pm

Unelected EU?

Obviously every country in the EU is a democracy.

There are some people making up all sort of anti-EU nonsense

The EU does some great stuff in making consumer rules and regulations around the EU pretty much standard so when we go into a shop we can be pretty much certain the product does what it says on the EU label. Once we leave the EU its quite possible our SE Asian pants will have dangerous unlabelled chemicals on them (we will no longer be part of ECHA ).

Its pretty much madness to quit the EU. We definitely need a second referendum on the issue now that we all know the real score.
David Pillinger Reply

November 20, 2017 at 3:18 pm

As the Chairman of Guildford-and-Woking-in-Europe, my colleagues and I continue to campaign in favour of maintaining the openness of our country. We meet regularly with our MPs and major Surrey businesses and institutions suffering already under the strain of Brexit. We lobby hard for common sense because we strongly believe Brexit is a very dangerous state of affairs for Surrey and the rest of our beloved country.

Robert Good’s intervention with this letter is admirable. It is time that MPs listened to reality and voted in accordance with it. That is democracy. To allow a few maverick Brexiteers, whose arguments are riddled with holes and untruths, settle the agenda for this country without the scrutiny of well informed MPs reeks of the kind of democracy that operates in places like Russia and China. Not for me!
John Perkins Reply

November 21, 2017 at 7:51 am

So much patriotism from Remainers now, despite the scorn they heaped upon it during the referendum campaign.

More than 17 million people cannot be described as “a few mavericks”.

Those well-informed MPs would be the same people fiddling their expenses and sexually harrassing their colleagues, would they?