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Guildford Contingent Takes Part in Pro-EU London March
Published on: 26 Mar, 2017
Updated on: 26 Mar, 2017
The Guildford contingent gather at Guildford station – Robert Good, retired barrister is on left holding the EU flag
Over fifty people from our town and surrounding villages boarded trains from Guildford Station to London early on Saturday morning (March 25 2017) to attend the Unite-for-Europe march on Parliament.
Supporters of Guildford-in-Europe in Park Lane – Sue Hackman is on the phone.
The Guildford-in-Europe group met with the Epsom-based Surrey-for-Europe group at the start of the procession in Park Lane and marched, together with anti Brexiteers from all over the country, along Piccadilly towards Trafalgar Square and the Houses of Parliament.
On the march in Piccadilly, together with other supporters from Surrey
Sue Hackman, organizer of Guildford-in-Europe’s contingent at the march said: “It was wonderful to see the packed trains from Guildford, Woking and Farnham arriving at Waterloo Station with anti-Brexit supporters from all over. It really demonstrated how, in this vibrant and successful part of the country, so many people value the European Union’s principles of openness and collaboration with the outside world.”
Surrey youngsters, Alexandra Johnson and Tom Wright
David Pillinger, chairman of Guildford-in-Europe, added: “In Guildford and Surrey there is an overwhelming understanding that the wealth and wellbeing of Great Britain is, today, the result of openness to the rest of the world.
“Pulling up the drawbridge on our neighbours, while pretending that no damage will arise to Guildford’s world-beating international businesses, academia and scientific research, smacks of unsavoury nationalism rather than the common sense nationalism for which the London marchers stand”.
Retired barrister, Robert Good, who attended the march from Guildford, added: “We are proud of our county and of Great Britain and we don’t want to become outsiders. People will remember how we were a declining and isolated nation in the 1970s before joining in the European project. It took us 40 years of membership to bring us up to where we are. With Brexit, we are likely to reverse all that has been achieved.”
David Pillinger (Chairman of Guildford in Europe), and Cecilia Taylor from Shalford, take a selfie
But Leave campaigner Cllr Christian Holliday (Con, Burpham) called for more concentration on securing the best Brexit deal rather than trying to overturn the referendum result.
Cllr Christian Holliday (centre) during the EU Referendum campaign
He said: “Whilst everyone has the right to peaceful protest, it is a shame that many at yesterday’s event have the ultimate aim of undoing the referendum result and keeping Britain in the EU. For example, one of the speakers yesterday was former Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell, who wrote recently that he believes Brexit can be stopped.
“It is right that a close eye is kept on the Government throughout the leaving process, particularly in light of the lack of scrutiny from the official opposition, but this should be with the aim of ensuring the best possible outcome from the negotiations rather than seeking to subvert the referendum result.
“Following the triggering of Article 50 this coming Wednesday, I hope that many Remainers will bring their talents to the table to help make Brexit a success.”
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Responses to Guildford Contingent Takes Part in Pro-EU London March
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John Schluter
March 26, 2017 at 5:42 pm
If Cllr Holliday had had his way, all the marchers would have been arrested and charged with treason.
As for his comment, “Following the triggering of Article 50 this coming Wednesday, I hope that many Remainers will bring their talents to the table to help make Brexit a success,” the Remainers don’t believe it will be a success. They believe that remaining in the EU is the better option.
Ciaran Doran
March 27, 2017 at 9:29 am
Absolutely. Remaining in the worlds biggest and most successful trading block is the right thing to do. Why the British (or perhaps it’s just the English) don’t see this is beyond me.
John Lomas
March 26, 2017 at 6:40 pm
Do these people not understand that the whole aim of the EU’s administrators and leading politicians is to turn Europe into a single state with only one voice on the world stage? Something which many of the mainland countries rulers have been trying to do for two millenia.
Only one country has consistently resisted this; even when other countries have migrated here us we have managed to assimilate them and turn them into English, Scots, and Welsh etc, citizens with an allegiance to these “Sceptered Isles”.
Robert Park
March 26, 2017 at 9:42 pm
Cllr Holliday urges us Remainers to “bring their talents to the table to make Brexit a success”. Many other Brexiteers make similar recommendations. What, pray are we supposed to do to “make Brexit a success”?
We are all of us working hard (paid work or voluntary), in our various capacities, to contribute to this country, many of us in export businesses, some in professions. We are united in believing that the decision to leave not only the EU but the single market, customs union, and all the other organisations like Euratom and the European Medicines Agency, is completely mad.
What could be dafter than straining every muscle, as Theresa May says she is, to negotiate a close trading relationship with our EU partners, when in fact we already have the closest possible trading relationship – but one which we seem determined to throw away?
John Lomas repeats the usual absurd exaggeration that the aim of the EU’s administrators and politicians is to “turn Europe into a single state”. Absolutely not true ! The EU is not a state – it’s a co-operative arrangement which enables sovereign states with their own identity to work closely together to meet common challenges, in trade, in finance, in security, and in coping with climate change.
There should be absolutely no comparison at all with situations in the past where one power or another attempted to achieve mastery over the others.
Richard Carpenter
March 27, 2017 at 11:35 am
I totally agree. To “make Brexit a success” you’d need a lot more than talented Remainers on board – more like an army of magicians, backed up by an all-powerful deity, at the very least.
That should appeal to the magical thinking of Cllr Holliday and like-minded Brexiters.
Robert Good
March 26, 2017 at 9:52 pm
To suggest we should “respect the will of the people” surely predicates we ought to be able to respect the process. Nothing could be further from common sense than that we should respect the hyperbole and balderdash with which the debate was conducted.
The views of Farage, Johnstone, Rees-Mogg, and Gove – not to mention the Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph, mainly owned by non-dom billionaires of dubious reputation – do not represent my idea of democracy.
Bernard Parke
March 26, 2017 at 9:58 pm
Whether in support of Leaving or Remaining it does seem very unwise to hold such a demonstration so soon after the recent tragic event in Westminster when our police are under so much pressure.
Aubrey Lehay
March 27, 2017 at 12:44 am
I agree 100 per cent.
I am sure there will be those who used the, “If we postpone we will be bowing to terrorism,” excuse as justification for continuing the march but why on earth did they not postpone it for just a week? Postponing it would not only have eased the enormous pressure on the police but would have resulted in more news coverage as day of the event all front pages were still about the heinous act.
Anyway, the time to oppose leaving Europe was before the referendum was held. It is too late now.
David Pillinger
March 27, 2017 at 8:48 pm
No excuse was needed. We marched.
Ciaran Doran
March 27, 2017 at 10:22 pm
I disagree with Bernard Parke. I think it was very wise to go ahead with the march and prove to people that it is possible to protest, to gather together and make your voice heard, in a peaceful and honorable way.
The reporting of 100,000 or so people marching peacefully against something is important for our democracy. I have to say that the coverage by our national broadcaster has been abysmal and one wonders whether why a peaceful protest against something so fundamental to our country is sidelined by the state broadcaster.
John Perkins
March 29, 2017 at 12:05 pm
The BBC is actually showing balance in not over-reporting this. Some 20 years ago the Democracy Movement organised a march in protest at the attempt to get the UK to adopt the Euro.
It was almost completely ignored by the BBC even though about 15,000 people attended. The police refused to allow the march to finish in Parliament Square, one reason given being the large attendance.
Maybe supporters should be happy that so few pictures were published as they might have shown how unlikely is the claim of 100,000.
Jim Allen
March 26, 2017 at 10:15 pm
I have never seen similar marches because of the result of a general election, when only a minority of those who vote, vote for the winning party.
The right to peaceful protest is all well and good, but surely they should protest about something which is meaningful and can bring results which are beneficial to our own country.
May I suggest a few things to protest about:
(1) Too many foreigners in our prisons – why can’t they be deported as in other countries?
(2) Increasing air pollution caused by increasing levels of congested traffic.
(3) Destruction of the green belt.
(4) Councillors not listening to the people in local planning matters.
March if you must, but please choose a rational reason. We can manage without the EU’s bullying and poor accounting procedures.
Ciaran Doran
March 29, 2017 at 9:35 am
We are the EU. We are one of the most important members of the EU and always have been since we joined. So if there’s a problem with the EU then it is of our own making and our own failure to change it.
H. Trevor Jones
March 27, 2017 at 10:40 am
After an election, you can vote in a new lot in five year’s time if the latest lot make a mess of it. I suspect it will be more difficult to reverse a bad EU decision.
But yes fair enough that we try to get a good Brexit deal following the referendum 52%-48% vote, but if that is unachievable then we should keep open the option of staying in the EU – if the other 27 will still have us.
It’s interesting that after a general election the new government is usually less extreme in what it does than what it had said in campaigning, in effect taking account of those who didn’t vote for it. It should be the same with Brexit, ideally a situation that has us 48% in the EU (e.g. still in the Single Market) rather than a complete break, if that can be achieved.
By the way, what’s wrong in principle with states joining together but still retaining their regional differences including different local laws? It doesn’t seem to have done the American states any harm over the years. Even with the rise of Trump, he’s finding he’s not allowed to be as extreme as he would like to be.
David Pillinger
March 27, 2017 at 10:53 am
This is why we were marching:
Remember the pre Europe 1970s when we survived on the relationship with a former Empire and past glories. Britain was the basket case of the developed world, with record unemployment and no hope for its people.
Italy overtook us economically, we were bailed out by the IMF and our companies were the laughing stock of the world, constantly on strike, producing low grade products and uncompetitive against German, Italian and French corporations.
At the heart of the EU Single Market and unshackled from a system of low grade trade with former colonies has made us wealthy, fully employed and proud again. But proud in the modern international world of today, not the world of the door slamming, suspicious Brexiteer who prefers a relationship with former colonies to close integration with the countries that really matter in the world and which share our culture and geographic vicinity.
On every level the Brexit argument fails. That is why it is so important to protest against Brexit and that is why we urge the people of Guildford and Surrey to support us and join us at future marches. Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, Greens…we even have a former UKIP parliamentary candidate! We are all united in this clear aim and we are the majority in this vibrant and successful town.
Aubrey Lehay
March 27, 2017 at 4:27 pm
David Pillinger seems to missing the whole point of democracy. If you keep holding elections until you get the result you want you must therefore deprive those who voted differently from you of their wishes. They would then keep demanding elections until they got what they want and so on.
A good example is what Erdogan of Turkey is currently trying to do. Just keep holding elections until he gets his way. Which is a dictatorship. If he succeeds then Turkey will cease to be a democracy.
Remainers may well have been in be the majority amongst those who voted in this vibrant and successful town but they were, on the day of the referendum, not in the majority of those who voted in this vibrant and successful nation. What is so difficult to grasp about that?
D Bisdee
March 28, 2017 at 10:34 am
I think it’s a bit rich to compare the UK’s democratic election system to Turkey’s!
We have regular elections because it’s our system, which allows for the electorate to change their minds over the years, and for their changed minds to be respected.
It isn’t a case of “holding elections until you get the result you want”. The alternative is a system like Egypt’s where an unpopular government has to be thrown out by force (though it sadly didn’t get them very far) or Iraq’s under Saddam Hussein where a foreign invasion was launched (misguidedly in my view) to get rid of a dictator.
I’d also remind Mr Lehay that, as David Pillinger has said, a key reason why we have been a ‘vibrant and successful nation’ is because we are in the EU. Why throw that away?
Aubrey Lehay
March 28, 2017 at 5:27 pm
I was comparing the two systems in an attempt at explaining the differences. If D Bisdee was confused then I obviously lacked clarity.
The point I was attempting to make is that here we have elections, the results are known are published and the wishes of the majority of those who voted are carried out. If you keep having elections until you get the result you want, as Erdogan and the protesters are trying to so do, you are not engaging in the democratic process.
John Perkins
March 27, 2017 at 6:18 pm
So then, it wasn’t the huge bounty of North Sea Oil or the massive contribution of the City of London that made us wealthy? We’re now expected to believe it was access to the Single Market, even though the UK buys more from Europe than it sells there. In the 70s a negative Balance of Trade was considered to be a bad thing.
It’s good that the wealthy people of Guildford are all united in this aim. I wonder how many attended from less fortunate towns in The North or The Midlands?
Jim Allen
March 28, 2017 at 9:21 am
So the Brexit argument ‘fails’does it? If so, can David Pillinger please supply one copy of any year in the past 18 of signed and certified accounts for the EU? Can he say: How much fish has been taken from our shores by foreign trawlers? How much our payment deficit to the EU is? How many foreign country owned PLC’s have taken over our UK utilities because “a government can’t put money into utilities because it is ‘anti-competitive’ under EU Law (although other EU countries have brought up out utilities).
So I suggest we read the small print and, no matter what is claimed in public, discover it has cost us the family silver and has resulted in “expansion” beyond our countries capacity. If we hadn’t stopped it last year we would have no choice but stop it next for we simply could not continue on the trajectory set.
Keith Reeves
March 28, 2017 at 1:20 pm
I voted to remain. However, the facts are important if they are to be presented as reasons for marching.
The UK joined the EEC in 1973 with an unemployment rate of about 4%. We asked the IMF for a £2.3bn bail out three years later (1976) saying unemployment and inflation were at exceptional levels. The UK unemployment rate then peaked in the early 1980s at 12%.
The size of Italy’s economy overtook the UK’s, 14 years after we joined the EEC (1987).
Sue Hackman
March 27, 2017 at 11:24 am
For the benefit of readers, I should say that the march proceeded with the approval of the police, with whom the route and destination were agreed. It was a good-natured, family affair. A silence was held for victims of Wednesday’s attack, and the need for co-operation between European security services was highlighted.
We have the treasured right to express our views in a democracy, and did as Theresa May urged: we carried on without fear because that is what you do in a democracy.
Richard Carpenter
March 27, 2017 at 12:46 pm
Similar marches have occurred after most General Elections, most recently the Anti-Austerity March in 2015.
There’s a whole great big world outside Guildford.
John Armstrong
March 27, 2017 at 2:24 pm
Remainers are behaving as if it were they who had won the EU Referendum and had then been robbed of their result. They certainly seem to feel that they I hold the moral high ground despite not having a leg to stand on.
Christian Holliday
March 27, 2017 at 5:08 pm
It was most disappointing to see some of the marchers (I’m not suggesting any of them were from Guildford) placing their placards over the flowers and messages left for PC Keith Palmer and which had to be cleared away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rKWOjH5iLg
Christian Holliday is the Conservative borough councillor for Burpham.
John Schluter
March 27, 2017 at 11:09 pm
Nearly as disappointing as the behaviour of some English football fans (I’m not suggesting any of them were from Guildford) during the recent ‘friendly’ against Germany.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-fans-10-german-bombers-vs-germany-london-westminster-attack-criticised-a7644941.html
I thought we had, through unity and friendship, seen an end to this nasty and unpleasant nationalism but unfortunately it is yet another by-product of the referendum vote.
John Perkins
March 28, 2017 at 10:49 pm
Is Mr. Schluter suggesting that the behaviour of the football hooligans somehow excuses that of the placard holders? If so, then no level of depravity can be deprecated unless it can be shown there is nothing worse.
Eddie Russell
March 29, 2017 at 12:21 pm
I can assure Mr Schluter that this “nasty and unpleasant nationalism” at England football internationals is nothing whatsoever to do with the referendum vote.
English football hooligans have been doing this sort of thing in various countries for over 40 years now. The FA have banned most of the hooligans but there are still a few morons who manage to make their way to matches and give the vast majority a bad reputation, I’m sad to say.
David Pillinger
March 29, 2017 at 1:01 pm
And what is the exact insinuation surrounding this statement from Mr Holliday?
Christian Holliday was the councillor who created a petition calling on the government to make any attempt to make the UK a member of the EU, once again, a treasonable offence. A bit of a joke, he thought, except that treason carries the death sentence. [The death penalty was completely abolished in the UK in 1998 according to Wikipedia. Ed]
Neither the majority of Guildfordians, nor his own party, found it very amusing. He should join the UK Isolation Party to which his politics are better suited, rather than the Conservative Party, a party that aims to be all-encompassing.
Colin Cross
March 27, 2017 at 7:45 pm
Last week we read that the likely bill that the UK will be presented with for leaving the EU will be around £60 billion. So as there are around 60 million of us then I make that
£1000 per head for every man, woman, child and pensioner in UK.
When all our taxes are adjusted to pay for this and the £ abroad is becoming worth less than the Euro, will we not want to return to the ballot box to offer our revised views on whether we should stay or go?
The lesson is that you should only buy into something when you know what it costs.
Colin Cross is the Lib Dem borough councillor for Lovelace.
H. Trevor Jones
March 28, 2017 at 12:51 am
Interesting that no one has contradicted my view that a 48% vote for remain means we should strive to be 48% in the EU, implying in my opinion that we should still be in the Single Market and Customs Union.
Stuart Barnes
March 29, 2017 at 8:50 am
All rather pathetic. What about marching to celebrate our Freedom Day? I think that our government should give us a new public holiday to celebrate our regained independence. I must say it really rather sad that so many people seem to have no patriotism and would rather be ruled by the EUSSR.
I agree with Jim Allen re the EU accounts being never, for 22 years in succession, being given a clean audit report. The EU is a failed and corrupt organisation which would have been closed and its directors in jail if it were a private company.
Sue Fox
March 29, 2017 at 12:21 pm
Brexiters are in my opinion gloating. They are not likely to gain support from those of us who wanted to stay in the EU and as I wrote back in the summer, we shold stay in and sort it out. We have all suffered from successive governments destroying our industrial base to concentrate on service industries. This is not a good basis for the future.
Governments have tinkered with education and the NHS to their detriment. Problems in these areas are not the fault of the EU. In reality, being in the EU has probably saved the NHS, as has the rest of the world.
We cannot go back in time to a mythical world of sunshine and cricket on the green. This is 2017 where you need to be in partnerships with like minded countries to influence and change things, not a small off-shore island where the richest get richer and the poor are ignored.
I am writing this before 12.30 on 29th March, profoundly depressed. I hope it all works out but I have my doubts. It seems we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
John Schluter
March 29, 2017 at 8:39 pm
Totally agree Sue, sad day indeed.
John Perkins
March 30, 2017 at 12:21 am
Is it possible to be certain that other countries are like-minded?
Jim Allen
March 30, 2017 at 12:17 pm
Sue Fox should not think those who voted Leave are gloating.
We are rational free thinking people as sure in our minds as she is in hers that we made the right decision.
As for destruction of our industrial base, why was it felt we required “permission” from the EU for our government to invest while France “made arrangements” to retain ownership of Citroen and EDF, giving them financial security while that choice was denied us.
“Profoundly depressed” should be saved for personal problems not political decisions of this nature. The majority of people who voted decided to leave the EU it is time to move on.
John Robson
March 29, 2017 at 2:44 pm
The die is cast, there’s no turning back whatever the protestations of the minority that voted to remain.
Maybe one day we’ll have an economy that isn’t held to ransom by the banks or serves merely to benefit the South East. And maybe one day we can have a diverse, protectionist, vibrant economy with outstanding infrastructure like the Germans or the French.
Seems bizarre that two member states have benefitted so greatly to the detriment of others in what was supposedly a level playing field.
Time to put the Great back into Britain again.
Aubrey Lehay
March 30, 2017 at 3:48 am
Obviously passions run high on both sides. Good to see so many engaging.
Is this article the subject of the most letters of any in The Dragon’s history?
No, the article: More Faces Of Sixties George Abbot School Pupils To Identify, holds the record at 60. Ed
Paul Bishop
March 30, 2017 at 12:39 pm
The somewhat ironic thing about this march is that the people marching are complaining about their own inability to prove the EU was worth staying in, at least to the majority of voters. Forget what the politicians think, why did those who felt so strongly not get off their sofas when it could have made a difference. Why didn’t they get their friends and family to agree with their point of view? I’m sure many will say they did, but the numbers suggest otherwise.
It is pretty easy to preach to like-minded thinkers but the real challenge is presenting facts and thoughts to convince others to change their mind.
If, as Mr Pillinger says, “On every level the Brexit argument fails,” then why did Remainers not manage to convince a majority?
I should say, I voted for Remain, but strongly believe we can and will make the outcome work.
Colin Cross
March 31, 2017 at 12:23 am
There must be a lot of confident, rich people out there that they all sign up to a deal that they have no idea what the final cost will be.
Do these people walk into an off licence or restaurant and order up without a price list?
The reality is that we have already totally screwed up this whole negotiation process. It’s like phoning Easyjet and saying, “I’ve got to fly home tomorrow, what will it cost me?”
Obviously Mr Cameron was no card player as he laid all his cards on the table and then saw the mistake so walked away. Thanks a lot mate, really helpful!
The EU are in crisis mode, of our making, so why do we persist with the silly dream that they can be persuaded to give us a good, or even reasonable exit deal? There will be a long queue to follow us if they did that so it will never happen.
You should only buy when you know the price – full stop.
Colin Cross is the Lib Dem borough councillor for Lovelace
Stuart Barnes
March 31, 2017 at 7:02 pm
It seems to me that Cllr Cross (and the rest of the not democratic Liberals) have missed the tiny point that we, the people, have voted conclusively to get out of the failed and hated EU. No amount of whingeing about how unfair it all is will change anything.
The rest of us are enjoying our celebration parties and expect the clean withdrawal to be sorted out asap. It has taken too long already.
John Perkins
April 2, 2017 at 10:40 pm
I think Colin Cross is making a valid point when he says that negotiations are screwed up (albeit he does it in the wrong thread – it really belongs here: https://guildford-dragon.com/2017/03/30/letter-although-article-50-signed-will-still-uphill-struggle/).
David Cameron undoubtedly weakened the position of the UK in advance, as did Tony Blair (and others) before him. One of the problems with negotiating with EU bureaucrats and politicians is that they seem to take the view that the UK must be trying to cheat them. With that in mind, they believe it’s surely best not to reveal too much beforehand.
Having said that, I don’t believe the problems in the EU are the fault of the UK and if the EU is scared that others will leave if the UK gets anything other than a beating then it cannot be such a good place for those who might join the queue for the door.
Colin Cross
April 1, 2017 at 1:06 am
So Mr Barnes thinks it has taken too long to withdraw from the EU already does he?
Well let’s hear how he feels in 2+ years when he will be be still waiting. I think the celebration parties he is currently enjoying will be long over and the bubbly will be very flat, be it French Champagne, Spanish Cava or Italian Prosecco [or perhaps from Greyfriars, Albury Vinyard or Denbies. Ed].
As for a clean withdrawal, dream on, the EU are in the driving seat, or has he not cottoned on to that as yet? We will be taken to the cleaners, as he will see.
Let’s be clear, I’m not whinging or claiming it’s unfair, I’m just saying our goose is cooked. We are holding a pair of fours and the EU has a full house. Game over.
As for it being a conclusive vote, well it was about as marginal as it could get. The winners only won by virtue of telling more lies than the losers. A sad reflection.
Colin Cross is the Lib Dem borough councillor for Lovelace ward.
Paul Bishop
April 1, 2017 at 8:29 pm
Cllr Cross is yet another pro EU politician happy to talk down the UK in order to further his own EU agenda. If he thinks we are some small little pawn for the EU to dictate to, he is either naive, ignorant or worse.
Our small little island buys over 20% of the cars Germany builds, the German industries supported by this cannot afford trade tariffs, import taxes and the resultant increase in prices. Especially not when Jaguar Land Rover are already stealing volume from them.
The Prosecco makers in Italy have built businesses on UK exports, we still buy more than China and USA. Many thousands of jobs in Trevisso rely on this market. They are a couple of small examples, but there’s many more as I’m sure he really knows.
Our country, our industry and our future is incredibly strong and seeing people like him talk it down to make cheap points about how leaving the EU is such a disaster, annoys me and is pathetic. If he can’t see how great this country is then maybe he would be better off representing somewhere in Europe and leave us to get on with things.
George Potter
April 3, 2017 at 1:26 pm
Paul Bishop’s comment is a classic example of Brextremist economic illiteracy.
Half of our exports go to the rest of the EU. About 6% of exports from the rest of the EU come to the UK.
Yes, Brexit will hurt both the UK and the EU but at the end of the day we have far more to lose than they do.
I’m really getting fed up of these Brexiters braying so triumphantly about their determination to continue with a course that will destroy the gains of the past 40 years and set our country on the path of isolationism and national decline.
Real patriots love modern Britain the way it is whereas people like Paul Bishop seem to despise every single aspect of it.
John Perkins
April 3, 2017 at 7:58 pm
By value, about 45% (not half) of UK exports go to the EU and 51% of UK imports come from the EU, so the claim that we have more to lose is simply wrong. It costs more for the UK to buy goods from the EU than it gets from selling goods there.
Comparing UK exports relative to the UK against UK imports relative to the EU is silly.